SUMAC

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:16 pm

Dave,
Once again a well thought out reply which I think expresses how most of us feel about the new and different types of promotion and how it seems gaining experience is no longer important but how quickly you can get promoted.

I really do feel that we are heading on a one way road to heartache, and feel sure there will be many more sad stories of firefighter’s injuries and deaths.

Although there has been many rumors the full story of Bethnal Green has never been fully explained like Villiers Road or Gillender Street, because I am sure that part of this tragic story involves inexperienced officers being placed in positions were their skills, knowledge and experience was not up to the standard to deal with such an incident.

The UK fire service is currently suffering its worst rate of injury and death since the wartime and this has happened since 2000 the watershed for the fire service as the effects of no longer requiring exams for promotion, with emphasis being placed on development records starts to take effect on the fire ground.

If senior officers do look at his web site what are they doing? In the current climate you feel they are spying upon us trying to guess what we think and look at ways of trying to close the site down.

Morale is low within the Brigade, management seem driven by targets, make sure you get enough referrals for smoke alarms, targets for becoming greener, targets for this and that, whilst all around is slowly falling into chaos. Sort of reminds me of that image from the film A night to remember with the band playing on the deck of the sinking titanic.

Newbie User Online: Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

As a crew manager in Greater Manchester it is with great interest and a resigned familiarity that I followed the posts on this thread.
We too are a brigade with low morale and, in the eyes of most, focusing too intently on matters relating to community safety at the expense of operational matters.
We are also currently going through the experience/exams/promotion debate and seem to be in a similar position to yourselves, although I don't think we have any immediate plans for a fast track development programme for graduates.
As a graduate myself I think I am well placed to offer an insight into that debate. In GMFRS, the abolition of the statutory exams has seen a race for some people who would have previously never displayed the commitment to study, try to get promoted as far as possible in as short a time as possible. I do not only disagree with it and consider it detrimental to the firemanship and officership within the brigade, but consider that it is potentially dangerous. The situation will and has arisen where inexperienced officers are running jobs beyond their capabilities. This may not be the fault of the individual but the system that has allowed it to happen. I'm sure it is not a new scenario and similar situations have been encountered in the past but I am a firm believer in the old adage that ' there is no substitute for experience'.
The most respected officers are usually the officers with most operational experience and a good underpinning knowledge, which they put to good use in resolving operational incidents and running their respective watches. I believe that the life blood of any brigade are the station officers who have spent many years at the 'sharp end' gaining and honing that experience. This is not acquired easily or in a short period of time !!
As a graduate I would never consider that this provided me with a 'ticket to the top'. I currently have 8 years in the job, 2 and a half as a CM and I intend to 'learn my trade' and accumulate experience before progressing to the next role/rank. I don't know if you are aware but GMFRS has just introduced the IFE exams as part of the promotion process. In order to progress to the next rank/role, canditates will have to pass exams commensurate to that rank/role, i.e for promotion to CM candidates must have passed the intermediate exams and for WM the grads. I am not sure if this is the ideal situation but it is certainly a big step in the right direction and will slow down the meteoric rise of some people!
This is my first post so I must finally say that I enjoy visiting the site and getting a 'London perspective' on things and think the site is an excellent idea. I also hope to offer further opinions from the 'grim north' in the future!!!! MUFC FOREVER!!

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:33 pm

Welcome to the site and a good first post, as you say no real way around experience and Station officers who have learnt their trade over years not only operationally but running watches can look forward to a pay cut! Mind you your post was ok until the MUFC bit!! Never mind.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:38 pm

Hi Razor,

First let me welcome you, perhaps you could go to the 'Introduce yourself' part and let us know a little about yourself.

A good general first post, it must be so hard for the respective brigades to get the promotion thing right. There are either not enough exams, too many exams, people with not enough time in the job and to little experience.

I am one of those later people, having just less than six years in I class myself inexperienced. I have however gone for promotion and am in a training job at the moment which I was hoping would give me valuable experience in a safe role. The job however is not all I had hoped for and I now find myself quite frustrated due to the leadership and the way things are run.

The promotion round worked for me because the way I learn is very ‘hands on’ and find myself a little wanting in the ‘learn from a book’ type of way. I was finding the jobs hard to come by at station which is why I opted for the specialist training part of our brigade.

Oh and must as I don't want to agree with blazingpalace the bad language at the bottom was uncalled for :lol:

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:33 pm

As with most things there is not a right way or a wrong way, so long as in the end the best people for the job come through.

I like some of the others, came through the “old way” with written and practical exams, endless temporary at some awful stations then of course the dreaded interview.

I see youngsters with very little time jumping through hoops getting promoted and then turning up on my fire ground being picky because I am not wearing a tabard!! And of course we don’t like change, we knew what was what, now it’s been changed and that can always be unsettling for old gits.

Newbie User Online: Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

Blazing Palace, it is not the youngsters with very little time in getting promoted and turning up on the fire ground that I generally have a problem with.
If they turn up with the right attitude and a respect for the opinions and ideas of others with perhaps more experience than themselves then good luck to them. We have all required prompting in our decision making, and in some instances been glad of input from other people.
It is the way that the advice offered to them is recieved in my opinion. I will have no hesitation in offering my thoughts to a more senior officer on any job if I think I can contribute in a positive way, even if they do only have five minutes in the job!! However, if that officer shows a lack of respect to me personally, my opinions or even my crew, I will not be as forthcoming with ideas the next time we turn out together.
I am not saying that I have 'brainstorms' on every job or that my opinions are necessarily right, but their is a way to deal with people, respectfully, that some officers seem unable to do. This , in my opinion, is not down just to experience but to an individuals manner and his ability to manage and provide leadership. Unfortunately there are plenty of officers turning up on the fire ground with lots of experience that do not have the respect of others, not just youngsters.
Blazing Palace, the officers that tend to get under my skin are the ff's with plenty of time in who have sat on their arses for most of their careers, balked at the establishment and given officers a hard time who now, because of the abolition of the exams, have decided to get as far as possible as quickly as they possibly can. I believe the expression is 'poacher turned gamekeeper'.
Experience, promotion and examinations is a difficult topic to discuss with many relevant and equally persuasive arguments. However, I agree with you in that as long as the right people are getting through then that is all that matters.
In my view experience is desirable but if you have the right attitude to others, a willingless to learn and accept that you may not always be right and value the contribution of others then you should gain the respect of others.
Blaze Bear you seem to have decided at an early stage that you wanted promotion as I did. I did my first temporary after 5 years ,which is still later than some !!, and everyone should recognise your commitment and ambition and respect the choice you have made.
In our line of work experience is an invaluable commodity. However , if you display the right attitude and respect your colleagues then the pool of experience you can draw on will be much greater than just your own.
I hope to keep my next post a little shorter but I will continue to champion the cause of the mighty Red Devils!! Do you think it could be a United v Chelsea final ?????

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:43 pm

I thought more a Barcelona V Chelsea myself :D