SUMAC

Blaze Bear · SUMAC

Just got the results back and you'll all be glad to hear I passed :D

I know of one other who has so congrats to all who have.

1 Year left till I can come back out to a station :lol:

Rob

BlazingPalace

What is SUMAC???? is that the replacement for exams, endless temporary, experiance and an interview?
just being me sorry.
congratulations

Blaze Bear

Its still exams, but not as many brigade ones. There also interviews, a presentation and practical tests.

Worked for me as I'm crap at sitting down and doing loads of written exams, lot better at presentations and practical tests.

I also earning mine be putting up with all the politics and crap at STC for two years :(

BlazingPalace

Strings

Well done mate, I'm not sure about the SUMAC's either, but if ther are exams involved then it must take a bit of work :wink:

Am I right in saying that it's basically the Stn.O's exams?

BlazingPalace

I am just old fashioned; there was the leading fireman’s exam both written and practical, then the sub officer’s exam written and practical and then the station officer’s exam, and of course an interview between all of the different ranks.
I just do not understand how a leading fireman (Crew Manager) at a One appliance station who has spent his time sitting on the back, can get promoted to Watch Manager B in charge of a two pump station and 12 people, I really think its a recipe for disaster in the long run and feel sure that there will be many more situations were firefighters are injured or worse because of lack of command and control due to inexperience.

From my perspective there appears to be alack of technical knowledge, and therefore the knowledge base of those in charge is weak. If I think of all the different subjects I covered whilst studying for all my exams and the knowledge gained, I do not see that in this current system.

Strings

Well said. I think it seriously needs to be addressed. As you say, there is going to be more Firemen hurt/killed because of these inexperienced people in charge.

Blaze Bear

I agree on few parts but not others, I would have liked to have seen more operational stuff more basics and drills.

Unfortunately due to my age and the fact that there isn't the jobs around that there may have been when you guys joined I have to get my experience through drills and training.

The SUMAC I believe is for the CM and WM tests so they just rolled the two old ones together. You still have to do a course which is split into modules before you can go out to a station.

I've done it slightly differently, I have come into training. You don't act up anymore, your promoted into a role (WM) and then you spend a year or so gaining competency, in that time you do your trainer modules. You have to apply, have interviews, exams and do a presentation before you even get here.

It may not be the best way to do things but when I get out of here :D my core FRU skills be far higher than someone who has ridden the FRU for the same amount of time, (I did time at an FRU station and want to get back to one).

Just wait until they finalize the fast track graduates, 1 year out of training and they'll be running a station or worse big job.

So come on ladies, let me hve it :lol:

matt_bex

How does that graduate course work? From what i understand they apply normally but fast track to officer role because of educational merit??? Seems a bit mad to me, surely making decisions that could make or break at a considerable incident should come from experience in the job rather than your grades at uni!?!?! Im sure that would put a few peoples noses out of joint who have managed to get there the proper way, sweat, hard work and stress? Im new to the brigade and im actually looking forward to working my way up the proper way gaining as much experience and respect as I can along the way. Dont get me wrong though, im not saying people who do enter on the graduate scheme dont deserve a chance but I dont think it would be for me

Cyclops246

Matt,

You might be new to the Brigade but your sentiments are echoed widely among many of your new colleagues.

I served in the armed forces before joining the brigade and as much as I am a traditionalist I was never completely comfortable with the two-tier entry scheme. It seemed odd that a 19 year-old troop leader could arrive from Sandhurst to command a troop of experienced, salty blokes with time in and scars and tattooes to prove. The Fire Brigade 'join at the bottom and work your way to the top' system seemed a fair and sensible way to run an organisation where most of the risk critical decisions are often successfully influenced by experience.

Now, the Targeted Development Programme identified individuals that had the potential for leadership at the senior ranks, or within the senior roles now, and 'fast-tracked' them through the system. My experience of this is having a Station Manager arrive as monitoring officer on a job I was in charge of a couple of months ago who I remember arriving in the brigade only a few years ago as a probationer. In my opinion, and it is only that, she was a nuisance and behaved in a rather embarrassing way. I forced myself to suspend a nagging voice in my head that told me 'you have never been where I am and have never made the decisions I am making whilst under real stress so how can you monitor this incident with any depth of knowledge or experience.' Instead I smiled at the comments made and got on with the job regardless.

As for the Graduate Entry scheme, if it happens, which I think it is about to, this is a step further. How it works and why anyone with any sense believes it is a good step forward, I don't know. I have my suspicions that there is a political motive and the scheme will solve a number of recruitment and representation issues out- just as the Targeted Development Programme has.

My approach to this job has always been to learn your existing job until you can do it well, but remember that the learning never ends. Then, if you feel it's right, seek promotion to the next level and prove yourself there. This approach has been based on the fact that I considered all the people I really respected as professionals in our organisation and realised that all of them had spent time at their rank, or within their role, and could do their job well. Unfortunately there are some in our job who continually seek the next step up without proving themselves within their current role, eventually finding they are promoted at least a rank above their ability.

Of course, these are my opinions and as I've stated before in this forum, I'm aware some senior staff look in here so I've been careful with my thoughts.

Dave

BlazingPalace

Dave,
Once again a well thought out reply which I think expresses how most of us feel about the new and different types of promotion and how it seems gaining experience is no longer important but how quickly you can get promoted.

I really do feel that we are heading on a one way road to heartache, and feel sure there will be many more sad stories of firefighter’s injuries and deaths.

Although there has been many rumors the full story of Bethnal Green has never been fully explained like Villiers Road or Gillender Street, because I am sure that part of this tragic story involves inexperienced officers being placed in positions were their skills, knowledge and experience was not up to the standard to deal with such an incident.

The UK fire service is currently suffering its worst rate of injury and death since the wartime and this has happened since 2000 the watershed for the fire service as the effects of no longer requiring exams for promotion, with emphasis being placed on development records starts to take effect on the fire ground.

If senior officers do look at his web site what are they doing? In the current climate you feel they are spying upon us trying to guess what we think and look at ways of trying to close the site down.

Morale is low within the Brigade, management seem driven by targets, make sure you get enough referrals for smoke alarms, targets for becoming greener, targets for this and that, whilst all around is slowly falling into chaos. Sort of reminds me of that image from the film A night to remember with the band playing on the deck of the sinking titanic.

Razor

As a crew manager in Greater Manchester it is with great interest and a resigned familiarity that I followed the posts on this thread.
We too are a brigade with low morale and, in the eyes of most, focusing too intently on matters relating to community safety at the expense of operational matters.
We are also currently going through the experience/exams/promotion debate and seem to be in a similar position to yourselves, although I don't think we have any immediate plans for a fast track development programme for graduates.
As a graduate myself I think I am well placed to offer an insight into that debate. In GMFRS, the abolition of the statutory exams has seen a race for some people who would have previously never displayed the commitment to study, try to get promoted as far as possible in as short a time as possible. I do not only disagree with it and consider it detrimental to the firemanship and officership within the brigade, but consider that it is potentially dangerous. The situation will and has arisen where inexperienced officers are running jobs beyond their capabilities. This may not be the fault of the individual but the system that has allowed it to happen. I'm sure it is not a new scenario and similar situations have been encountered in the past but I am a firm believer in the old adage that ' there is no substitute for experience'.
The most respected officers are usually the officers with most operational experience and a good underpinning knowledge, which they put to good use in resolving operational incidents and running their respective watches. I believe that the life blood of any brigade are the station officers who have spent many years at the 'sharp end' gaining and honing that experience. This is not acquired easily or in a short period of time !!
As a graduate I would never consider that this provided me with a 'ticket to the top'. I currently have 8 years in the job, 2 and a half as a CM and I intend to 'learn my trade' and accumulate experience before progressing to the next role/rank. I don't know if you are aware but GMFRS has just introduced the IFE exams as part of the promotion process. In order to progress to the next rank/role, canditates will have to pass exams commensurate to that rank/role, i.e for promotion to CM candidates must have passed the intermediate exams and for WM the grads. I am not sure if this is the ideal situation but it is certainly a big step in the right direction and will slow down the meteoric rise of some people!
This is my first post so I must finally say that I enjoy visiting the site and getting a 'London perspective' on things and think the site is an excellent idea. I also hope to offer further opinions from the 'grim north' in the future!!!! MUFC FOREVER!!

BlazingPalace

Welcome to the site and a good first post, as you say no real way around experience and Station officers who have learnt their trade over years not only operationally but running watches can look forward to a pay cut! Mind you your post was ok until the MUFC bit!! Never mind.

Blaze Bear

Hi Razor,

First let me welcome you, perhaps you could go to the 'Introduce yourself' part and let us know a little about yourself.

A good general first post, it must be so hard for the respective brigades to get the promotion thing right. There are either not enough exams, too many exams, people with not enough time in the job and to little experience.

I am one of those later people, having just less than six years in I class myself inexperienced. I have however gone for promotion and am in a training job at the moment which I was hoping would give me valuable experience in a safe role. The job however is not all I had hoped for and I now find myself quite frustrated due to the leadership and the way things are run.

The promotion round worked for me because the way I learn is very ‘hands on’ and find myself a little wanting in the ‘learn from a book’ type of way. I was finding the jobs hard to come by at station which is why I opted for the specialist training part of our brigade.

Oh and must as I don't want to agree with blazingpalace the bad language at the bottom was uncalled for :lol:

BlazingPalace

As with most things there is not a right way or a wrong way, so long as in the end the best people for the job come through.

I like some of the others, came through the “old way” with written and practical exams, endless temporary at some awful stations then of course the dreaded interview.

I see youngsters with very little time jumping through hoops getting promoted and then turning up on my fire ground being picky because I am not wearing a tabard!! And of course we don’t like change, we knew what was what, now it’s been changed and that can always be unsettling for old gits.

Razor

Blazing Palace, it is not the youngsters with very little time in getting promoted and turning up on the fire ground that I generally have a problem with.
If they turn up with the right attitude and a respect for the opinions and ideas of others with perhaps more experience than themselves then good luck to them. We have all required prompting in our decision making, and in some instances been glad of input from other people.
It is the way that the advice offered to them is recieved in my opinion. I will have no hesitation in offering my thoughts to a more senior officer on any job if I think I can contribute in a positive way, even if they do only have five minutes in the job!! However, if that officer shows a lack of respect to me personally, my opinions or even my crew, I will not be as forthcoming with ideas the next time we turn out together.
I am not saying that I have 'brainstorms' on every job or that my opinions are necessarily right, but their is a way to deal with people, respectfully, that some officers seem unable to do. This , in my opinion, is not down just to experience but to an individuals manner and his ability to manage and provide leadership. Unfortunately there are plenty of officers turning up on the fire ground with lots of experience that do not have the respect of others, not just youngsters.
Blazing Palace, the officers that tend to get under my skin are the ff's with plenty of time in who have sat on their arses for most of their careers, balked at the establishment and given officers a hard time who now, because of the abolition of the exams, have decided to get as far as possible as quickly as they possibly can. I believe the expression is 'poacher turned gamekeeper'.
Experience, promotion and examinations is a difficult topic to discuss with many relevant and equally persuasive arguments. However, I agree with you in that as long as the right people are getting through then that is all that matters.
In my view experience is desirable but if you have the right attitude to others, a willingless to learn and accept that you may not always be right and value the contribution of others then you should gain the respect of others.
Blaze Bear you seem to have decided at an early stage that you wanted promotion as I did. I did my first temporary after 5 years ,which is still later than some !!, and everyone should recognise your commitment and ambition and respect the choice you have made.
In our line of work experience is an invaluable commodity. However , if you display the right attitude and respect your colleagues then the pool of experience you can draw on will be much greater than just your own.
I hope to keep my next post a little shorter but I will continue to champion the cause of the mighty Red Devils!! Do you think it could be a United v Chelsea final ?????

BlazingPalace

I thought more a Barcelona V Chelsea myself :D