Protected Pay for Station Officers

BlazingPalace · Protected Pay for Station Officers

Just a quick one really I shall be attending this meeting next Thursday and will give a short feed back here for those it concerns.
The meeting is being held at the Religious Society of friends, Friends House, 173 Euston Road on Thursday the 24th of January.

Cyclops246

I'm hoping to make it too, Ian. Has the time changed? I seem to remember seeing something saying the meeting was gonna be later. I'm between nights so will hang around in town for the day. I might have a sociable half of very week shandy (wouldn't want to fall foul of the new drink/drug regs), if you fancy it.

Dave

BlazingPalace

Dave time changed to 19:00Hrs on a whites first day duty which would be your first day off

BlazingPalace

Protected Pay for Station Officers

Firstly the meeting was well attended with about 70 people there which was not a bad turn out.

Matt Wrack and Andy Dark attended this meeting to give the unions perspective upon the various issues.

The current situation has arisen from the pay settlement agreement of 2003. Although it’s a poor agreement it was accepted by the majority of the work force. Within the framework of that agreement was the new rank structure and the role of Station Officer would be replaced by the rank of Watch Manager B.
The agreement is clear in that the protected status for Station Officers would only last three years, upon this anniversary Station officers would lose their pay protection and an assimilation process would take place to bring their wages into line with Watch Managers B’s
Last year because of other factors (Mainly CPD) the union and employers were unable to agree a satisfactory mechanism for achieving this re-alignment. Both parties agreed for 2007 that the protected status would remain in tact for one more year, and both parties would start negation on this issue.

The union’s stance on this matter is that the pay protection should remain for the life time of the individual until they either leave the service or get promoted.

The employers fearful of possible litigation want this matter resolved as soon as possible, in fact the sooner the better.

There is currently about 900 within the UK fire Service receiving pay protection, some 300 in London with the majority of the remainder in Manchester, Liverpool and the West Midlands Fire and Rescue Service.

The union have looked into this matter in great detail and have been unable to find any cases in public sector where someone has received pay protection for longer than 3 years. If this matter was to go to ACAS the probability is that we would lose any case and of course a settlement would be imposed upon us.

However much it sticks in the throat the Employers have the upper hand and they know it. It is very unlikely that any support for industrial action would be received from the rank and file members of the union. The union’s position is one of trying to negotiate a deal which is the best it can achieve for its members but one that is constrained by the fact that at the end of the period we will be at Watch Managers B level of pay.

There are several options
1. A pay cut now to take us down to the level of a Watch Manager B in one go, about a £3000 drop.
2. A series of cuts over a three year period, again at the end of the process we are at the level of a Watch Manager B
3. No pay rises for a number of years until Watch Managers B pay is the same us ours.
Proposals from the Employers are due to be received very shortly detailing their preferred method of achieving this. As soon as it is announced (think it’s around the 30th of January) there will be a series of meetings to discuss this and which way to take the matter further.

Now to make it even more complicated there is scope for some local agreement.
Some brigades that had only a handful of Station officers on protected pay and promoted them to Station Mangers, there by solving the problem in one go. Now for London that is not going to happen. However and it is a big however,
London and National representatives believe that maybe there might be some room for manoeuvre. An idea would be to try arranging a meeting with Ron Dobson and as many of us that could attend as possible. Without it deteriorating into a shouting match try and put our case across, we are the ones who are trying to make things works, keep the work force going despite low morale etc and see what he comes up with.
Now to try and stop any claim of unequal payment from other Watch Managers, those receiving protected pay could be asked to do an extra duty, for an example once a month doing some CFS work. That way our job is slightly different from current Watch Mangers B’s and would stop any possible litigation.
Also the Brigade could be encouraged to offer targeted development, lots of different idea some might work some might not but it’s worth a try.

Now if you are not already reaching for a sharp knife just to add a little bit more bad news Dominic Johnson has already stated that he would only be prepared to talk about Station Officers protected pay if the union agreed to 12 hour Shifts. Of course the union has rejected this as they are two separate matters but that’s what we are against I am afraid.

So having told us we are valued and needed to carry out the work of implementing many of the new changes we about to get a kick in the teeth to the value of 3 grand!

Straight8

A Stn O that's a good friend of mine is jacking the rank in and reverting back to WM (A). He's looking for a post at a one pumper or staff, and aims to devote more time to his fiddle to make up the difference, minus the hassle of a muti appliance station.

I think the word 'shafted' rears it's ugly head again.

Cyclops246

Ouch.

Straight8

Cyclops246

I know of a person that reverted from Sub Officer to Leading Firefighter when Sub Officers were taken off of FRU's.
He was initially told that reversion from any substansive rank was to Firefighter and allowing an individual to revert only one rank was at the discretion of the Brigade.

I'm not sure reverting is a productive way forward, more cutting off your nose to spite your face. That said the optrions detailed by Ian don't sound attractive. there is a meeting at Croydon on Monday or Tuesday (can't remember which) for Watch Managers affected by this. I'm away in Scotland so can't make it, but a friend based at Wandsworth is going.

BlazingPalace

The meeting at Croydon just covered the same ground as the meeting the other week at Euston. Still looks like we ae going to get dicked, but as the employers keep telling us "We accepted" this pay deal.

Cyclops246

Kinda tests your dedication, somewhat, doesn't it? I keep telling myself no reasonable employer would treat a depended upon group of workers like this.....would they???

I see the employers have played the minorities card already stating that to continue protected pay for station officers would benefit a small, essentially white male section of the workforce. Expertly batted back, me thinks, by the FBU, who replied we shouldn't be punished for their inability to recruit minorities into the officer ranks.

Getting messy already.

BlazingPalace

We have lost 15 year money ( replaced with cpd which we will have to apply for from next year ) now this, makes us about £4500 short each year!! Think its time to bring the brown card leave into use!!

BlazingPalace

Below is a copy of an e-mail sent to all those attending the meeting at Croydon with a response from Pan Poullais

Meeting held at Croydon Training Centre

Date: 04/02/08

Present: Larry Lawes H27; Dick Young H38; Nigel Baker H32; Neil Sinclair H41; John Gynne E21; Bill Horlock Lewisham/Greenwich FS; Ian Mills H34; Jon Cork E21; Tony Weeks H26; Les Aldous H36(G27 ); Jamie Keays Kingston/Richmond FS; Enda Rooney Training.
Apologies: Tim Marcham H31

I called this meeting at Croydon to relay the position on Station Officer pay protection as discussed at the previous meeting held last month in Euston.
Here are the comments and questions that came out of the Croydon meeting:

1). The employers say that they are concerned about civil action but WMBs knew the pay and conditions before they applied for the role. Our pay was part of our contract. Is there any legal reddress for us? A) Realistically there is no legal redress as any contractual change was agreed by the NJC. Legal redress would only apply if individuals had an unauthorised deduction of pay.
2). The Bain report recognised our rank needing a larger pay differential, so why now do they want to give us a pay cut? A) In terms of a pay cut, this is strictly not the case. It is, from the employer’s position, a pay freeze, thus allowing the WM ‘B’ role to catch up. In reality, yes you could argue that it is pay cut, but should it go to ACAS for arbitration, the best we are likely to get is a further 3 year protection. But after the three years, will there be a freeze or a pay cut? If the employers position is to freeze pay now and they are overturned by arbitration they are unlikely to freeze pay after the three years but rather look at cutting pay for those remaining Stn.O’s.
3). When the move from rank to role took place no one was supposed to lose out. Surely a pay cut is losing out. A) Please see answer to 2).
4). Promoting Station Officers in 2003 made matters worse with regard to numbers. Why should we pay for the employers mistake? A) This was not a mistake, the employers wanted to have a WM’A’ to ‘B’ process and the FBU argued that Rank to Role had yet to be introduced and any promotion would be to Stn.O. This was agreed, with pay protection. Had they not promoted those Sub.Os to Stn.O. there would not have been that many left. But at least those that did get promoted were on the Stn.O.protected pay. The fact that there is still 300 left in this brigade, I believe will be better to negotiate local agreements.
5). This will be the first role/rank ever to have suffered a pay cut in the Fire Service. Additionally to this there was a lot of discussion around previous ranks that had been protected until retirement. A) Again I would have to stress that this is not a physical pay cut. In terms of previous ranks being protected until retirement, this was a local agreement under a previous regime. The HR department which runs the Fire Service will not succumb to previously locally agreed settlements.
6). If a member resigns because of any potential pay cut could this be couched as constructive dismissal? A) Again I would have to stress that this is not a pay cut so freezing pay would be very difficult to prove as Constructive Dismissal in an ET.
7). What about European legislation? There was a feeling that the FBU were wrong about LSI being illegal and that there was a distinct possibility that this pay cut could be found to be illegal in the Europe. A) The issues surrounding the legality of the removal of LSI is not an issue that needs to be re-visted however when the CPD was agreed nationally those that were being paid LSI would have those contributions for Pension purposes acknowledged and this would be reflected in the final pension payment.
8). What about the creation of a ‘WMC’ for multi appliance stations (I explained that the role doesn’t exist and that the employers are unlikely to create a role that they would be committed to for all time). A) This is a good question on the basis that when the proposals were originally agreed, ACAS had stated that those on protected pay, to prevent any loss should be placed in a role commensurate with their pay, so this is still live in terms of negotiation.
9. What are the cost implications of protecting StnOs who essentially are a diminishing group over their life span and can we ask for that information under freedom of information? A) Generally speaking, what you can ask for is the financial implications of the pay freeze in comparison to the life time protection for those substantive positions.
10). Assuming that the Authority would be prepared to create a WMC or a Station Manager ‘A’ position how many multi appliance stations (not just two pumps) are there and would there be enough positions to absorb the complement of StnOs. A) There are approximately 300 Stn.O.’s in London, 100 of which are in specialist roles that leave 200 rider positions. 200/4 equals 50, so we need to look at 50 Fire Stations that are multi appliance. I do not believe that we have that many.
11). Is there any real hope for local negotiations following any national agreement? A) The way the brigade are, it is very unlikely, however because of the numbers involved and the possibility of withdrawal of goodwill from those affected, I believe that we may have some mileage out of local negotiations.

As well as these the point about taking statutory exams and being paid for a ‘higher’ level of qualification was mentioned.
I did relay as faithfully as I could what Matt had said about the Authority fear of civil action and where this had come from. Also I explained the position with reference to 3-year protection
I think it’s fair to say that those present were astonished that the union were prepared to accept the wage cut even with the potential phasing in of it and on that note, there were those who felt that we might do better at arbitration and were prepared to take the chance.
Generally, it was felt that there was little or no hope of any industrial action being successful bearing in mind the small numbers involved.
I also think that while they understand the principal of not negotiating away the shift patterns for their cause; this group feels that they have been utterly betrayed by both the union and the employers with the weakest of justification. I think it worth noting that for the rest of their time it is these people who are expected to implement the modernisation agenda. I don’t think there will be a great deal of enthusiasm for it!

As you can probably appreciate this wasn’t an easy meeting. However I have said that I would forward on their concerns and that we would get back to them when we have some answers to their questions.

Cyclops246

Thanks Ian.

I should have sent my aplogies like others but was in Scotland larging it on Loch Lomond.
It's looking dire, mate. I'm still struggling to believe that we could be shat on like this. Will you change your strapline? Will the bouncebackability work? If so, can I have some???

BlazingPalace

Larging it in Loch Lomand, are you a masochist or something? Must have been really cold up, was you skiing?

Thing is Dave it seems the union are almost if not already about to give up on this. They seem to think the best we can hope for is a pay freeze until Watch Manager B’s catch up to our rate of pay.

As we now know, they were wrong about long service pay, it’s OK to pay people different rates of pay for doing the same job and reward for experience. So we could say that long serving Watch Managers B (Stn.O in old money) get rewarded for their experience buy being paid a different rate.

If the issue is about equality for people doing the same job how come we are keeping our leave, this gives us an extra day off compared to new Watch Manager B’s.

Whilst I am not slagging off any of the London Union Officials I just get the impression they seem to think its game over for us.

I am sure I am not alone, but as a group we need to let those concerned i.e Dobson that some of his foot soldiers are very unhappy and feel let down by the authority. Just not sure yet what but there must be something.

Cyclops246

Hi Ian,

Not skiing mate. I was doing some training on the West Highland Way for a race I'm doing there in June. But had a cheap deal at the Cameron House Hotel, usually £250 or so a night, we got a suite for £84!! It wasn't too cold but it rained almost constantly. Although not inside the Loch Fyne Oyster Bar.....or the Drovers Inn....or the Kingshouse Hotel. As you can see....not much training got done!!

I'm still struggling with this protected pay thing. Like most, I have been a FBU member since joining, have paid my dues, took a full and active role in the strike etc. etc. However, recently I've felt that the FBU haven't been representing me personally and it seems as if we're being sold out on this issue due to the limited number of people involved. It seems a negative double whammy could occur here. The small but influential group of former Station Officers on protected pay could end up completely dissillussioned with both the Brigade and the FBU. what a shame!

I agree with you about making our voices heard. If it's not through the Officers Section of the FBU I'm not sure how we ought to do that. Any ideas??

BlazingPalace

I must say Dave if that’s the sort of training you have to undertake for a race I might start taking an interest in this running thing!!

Seriously I think we need to do something ourselves as a group. If I am correct I think we are no longer represented by the officers section. Sure we now fall within our own branches at station rather than the officers section. Officers section is now for middle managers (yep even the union have downgraded us)

Firstly I think we need to see what the employers proposals are, and then see what the union has to say about them. Don’t forget we are fighting this on a national front as well as a local front.

We should really try and make the union take this to ACAS and see what happens. We can try a direct approach to see if we can secure a local agreement. It was suggested trying to arrange a meeting with Ron Dobson with as many Station Officers present as possible and try and talk to him about how we feel without it getting to boisterous.

I am sure he realises the position but when faced by a number of people he may try to persuade those in HR that perhaps we could keep our protection for life, I do not know what the cost implications are but it’s an ever decreasing amount as the number reduces due to either promotion or retirement.

Whilst we are an important influential group within the work force our numbers are slowly reducing and they know that. However I am not going to accept this without at least some kicking and screaming. There has been the usual “lets all go sick on the same week” if I thought that might make them take note I be happy to do that.

It’s not over till the large boned lady (better not say Fat as that’s not PC) clears her throat.

Ian

Cyclops246

Right. that'll be why I no longer get emails from the officer's section of the FBU! They call me 'Finger-on-the pulse Waterman.'

I agree mate. We should do something. Going sick at the same time? That's nonsense. What we need on top of losing protected pay is the possibility we won't get CPD because we're over the prescribed number of sick days. Going to ACAS is risky because if ACAS find against us we'll be in no position to negotiate locally. I think the second proposal of, through the FBU, approaching the Commissioner is a plan.

BlazingPalace

If I am honest the only thing that gets my vote is a face to face with Dobson with as many Station Officers there as possible, needs to be chaired by someone neutral who can keep some order, last thing we want is a slanging match we need to show we are much better than that.
If we go to ACAS nationally the worst they are going to do is find in favor of the employers position to give us no pay increments.
We need to spread the word I am back at work tomorrow I will see if the union has a list of Station Officers on protected pay and start to e-mail them with a suggestion of a face to face meeting with Dobson.

I am not really prepared to sit around on my arse waiting for the union to do something or not.