Camberwell

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:21 pm

Have heard so distressing rumours reference the flat fire at Camberwell that killed six, any thoughts or comments

Please note that this forum is OPEN and people do keep an eye on it so just think before you write anything.

Blaze

Learner User Online: Joined: 28 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

My initial thoughts...
The officers in charge of incidents nowadays have their hands tied by overbearing Health & Safety legislation, this has led to decisions being made that err on the side of caution which is why we see more and more fire fighting being done from the outside, we all knew that sooner or later we would see the death of one of those whom it is our duty to protect perish in a fire, unfortunately for us, the number was way above that.

Awareness is also to blame, for example, are all officers aware of the capabilities and disposition of EDBA and those qualified to wear it? Even if the answer is "Yes", there is still the health & safety, 'Sword of Damocles' hanging over their heads if they get it wrong, especially if it is a firefighter who becomes the victim.

I am not having a pop at the officers, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't, it is the culture, the brigades' atitude of make the right decision and you are a hero, make the wrong one and we'll hang you out to dry that I am enraged with and in some way, I am glad that it is being scrutinised by the press, because there does need to be a shake up, hopefully this will be the wake up call for the policy makers and one of them will be held to account.

We all took this job knowing that it is, at times, dangerous and that ultimately, we could be killed, I for one am prepared for this if it means coming to the aid of somebody in a situation where the odds are massively stacked against them, at least I could say that my life was not squandered, but that it was my raison d'etre.

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:17 pm

Mr Wirkit, I agree on all bits but one. I don't want us or our job scrutinised by the papers, they are self righteous and ONLY write what sells papers and not what is true.

I also believe senior offices DO NOT know or understand what the specialist units in the LFB can and are equipped to do, and if this is so then its a a f**king disgrace. They should learn it on every promotion course they take.

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:00 pm

First a big hand to those crews who worked their socks off in very energy sapping conditions. Unfortunately there has always been the 'If you go for it and it works then you're a hero and the brigade parades you like a trophy and if it goes wrong then you get used as a scapegoat by the brigade attitude." We know that the brigade has a duty of care but are we losing sight of what we are all here for or am I being "old school"?
It appears that there is a lack of "real firefighting" experience in some of our senior officers, which is not their fault but there is only so much you can teach through simulation.

Learner User Online: Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 96

Outstanding efforts to the blokes that worked at the job, you did all you could.

I agree, there are too many officers out there that don't have enough operational experience. It's not their fault, it the Brigades/Authorities fault. To have someone with minimum time in, probably having not even been in to a half decent job, and expect them to send blokes in (or not as this case may be) without know what is on the other side, is stupid in my honest opinion. Someone with the experience and knowledge should have said EDBA was to be used as soon as it was clear that SDBA wasn't sufficient.

There are some situations where "the book" has to be put aside.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:31 am

Could'nt agree more.

I've often found myself as a Fireman advising Senior Officers on Damage Control gear / methods or the use of Foam for firefighting.

Me, A bucket.

The result being we have all this fancy gear and trucks that sit redundant in bays across London because no one is aware they exsist.

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:03 pm

* Matt Wrack
* The Guardian, Wednesday 15 July 2009
* Article history

Your report on the recent horrific fire in Camberwell highlighted criticisms of the firefighters who attended the incident (Fire crews under attack over blaze that killed six, 6 July). Local people are right to ask questions and to demand answers, but you failed to question whether the criticisms made were in any way valid.

You report one resident as saying that "the ladder was sitting on the roof of the vehicle there and they were not using it", suggesting a significant failing on the part of the firefighters. You did not question whether the use of ladders would have made any difference to this tragedy.

Most fire engines attending the incident would have carried ladders which would reach to the fourth floor at most; therefore the procedures at such an incident would be to start to fight the fire from within the building. The high-rise appliances which attended could possibly reach the ninth floor, depending on the site available on the ground. In both cases, ladders could have made no difference to the outcome of the incident. Firefighters knew this, and that is why they acted as they did - correctly and in accordance with normal procedures. But the fire service was not asked to provide an explanation of this for your article.

You also highlighted criticism of the time taken to reach the fire, with a suggestion that a large number of firefighters failed to act quickly enough. One bereaved resident was quoted as saying: "There were 100 firemen there. Why didn't one of them go to save my family?" But as soon as crews arrived they entered the building and started firefighting. It is obviously vital that such operations are carried out professionally - firefighting procedures are essential to ensure the safety of firefighters, and also to ensure that fires can be fought efficiently and effectively, to save lives and to prevent injury. They are based on knowledge of the behaviour of fire, on the best way to use equipment - and on bitter experience.

Firefighters are also devastated by the loss of life and want to know what happened in Camberwell - why the fire spread as it did, in a completely unexpected way and very rapidly. That is why the FBU has called for a full inquiry into all aspects of the incident. This should cover the fire service operations, the fire safety regime, and the building construction and management, including the issue of alterations and refurbishment.

Such an inquiry needs to be subject to full and open scrutiny, and to address the concerns raised by residents, the bereaved and their families.

In 2005 two firefighters were killed fighting a fire in a tower block in Stevenage. Jeff Wornham and Michael Miller died trying to save the life of Natalie Close, who also died at the incident. We have spent the past four years trying to ensure that the lessons of that tragedy are learned and applied. We have still not completely achieved that.

The death of firefighter Ewan Williamson in Edinburgh at the weekend also underlines the dangers we face. As much as anyone, firefighters know the importance of finding out precisely what went wrong in these latest tragedies.

• Matt Wrack is general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union matt.wrack@fbu.org.uk

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:02 pm

I have taken my time to carefully think out a reply to this thread. Like everyone here we either know someone who attended this incident or actually did attend.

Firstly the crews at the incident worked their socks off; there is no doubt about that. It was a difficult job made worse by many different factors, which tragically came together on one day to make this worse than it should have been.

As an officer you are sort of dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t, but and this is a big but, you should have the ability to stand by your decisions, yes you may get slated but if you have made the right decision at the time who is going to do the criticising?

This brigade has for many years now relied upon a strategy of prevention being better than a cure; well if you think about their method of prevention it has been to: Stop dry riser inspections, reduce fire cover across London on a daily basis, and give householders a smoke alarm. Let’s look at this in more detail.

As we now have a knee jerk reaction to high rise building, we are going out doing familiarisations visits, if we had kept carrying out dry riser inspection we would know they layout of the building, know where the dry riser inlets and hydrants are, and more importantly if during that Inspection we found that doors had been vandalised or the protection for firefighting shafts in some way had been compromised we could have brought it to the attention of the council backing it with enforcement.

Over the years we have seen a reduction in fire cover across London, I seem to think sometime ago the Union made a case for a minimum 6 pump attendance to a fire in a high rise building, this was based on the minimum numbers to carry out correct procedures what do we have? a 3 pump initial attendance. How many of the local stations were on strat resource that day? I am lead to believe that the second appliance was coming from Southwark with an 8 minute running time, is that really good enough?

How many of the flat had a smoke alarm or indeed had a HFSRA carried out, these do not prevent fires breaking out and tragically in this case do not stop the tragic loss of life. As a brigade we need to move away from the idea that a HFSRA and a smoke alarm cures all it does not!!

I would imagine that incident command was a nightmare at this incident, how many silver meetings did they hold? You can not stop or hold up firefighting operations while you have a meeting to discuss what you should be doing or not. I would have thought that being faced with several fires on several floors would almost immediately mean that EDBA would be required in large numbers why did it take so long to get this organised? It’s not ok to say senior officers do not know about the kit carried on appliances, why do they not know?

I know I have probably offered no solutions only more questions but I would like to think that the 6 poor souls that died at this incident did not die in vain and that a full open inquiry with a wide ranging reference will be held to determine solutions to stop this ever happening again.

But some 4 years on from Bethnal Green we still do not fully know what happened that night I somehow think the brigade will keep it under wraps.